BodyBuilder. Reality vs. Expectation

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Quote from: CaptainAmerica on February 22, 2017, 03:44:17 AM5.65 -> 5.85 isn't that big of a change honestly. I mean yes now he's dating a 5'5 girl which probably would've had 0 chance of happening before.

The ideal, very best, and I think most life changing procedure overall would be 5'5 -> 5'10. Just two completely different leagues.

But I think this is all very relative and anecdotal lol. Imagine you get LL and then fall into depression afterwards for unrelated reasons like family death. Or imagine you get LL and then meet a girl who was taller than your starting height. Some people will say this surgery changed their lives, others will say it barely had any effect.

Tibike, it's not a sad update. Is the reality vs expectations for a man who from 1.68 became 1.75 and still have problems with height on dating.
And trust me, if I have these problems then the majority of men at these heights have also becauso, without been egocentrical or superficial, I don"t have any other physical drawback compared to the great majority of men.
So, if I face trouble on dating due to height, them the vast majority of men at these heights does also. And shorter than 5.8-5.7 men are, sorry about that but it is the harsh truth, almost doomed on dating.

Captain america, I gained about 7.5cm which is a good gain especially for tibia LL.
Being 1.75 from 1.68 IS a major difference but my point is that still my height is an issue on dating, something I never thought before LL when I truly believed that this difference is more than enough to never have any problems on dating due to height.
But it isn't.

Also, the 5.5 very sxxy girl was my ex.
My now gf is more average looking and a little less than 5.7.
And before LL I have a 4 year relationship with a 5.7 very sxxy and nice girl and 2 years with a very beautiful 5.6 girl too, but I was just lucky because they didn't care about height.
But the thing is that more than 80% of girls care about height a lot and most of the time, 5.9-5.8 is just not tall enough to be considered an ideal man.
That is something that I have seen again and again and can't be ignored so the only way to play with our rules is to get close to 5.11 as much as our initial height let us, even with doing two LLs.
And thats what I'm planning to do.

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@ Kaizer: you should live in a completely denial if you think that height doesn't matter for women. It is the first and most important thing they look in the appearance of someone and if you have a not ugly face and some muscles, then almost no women will reject you for your appearance. And then comes personality which is very important but it comes after the first impression. Guess what, if a woman doesn't like your appearance then she wouldn't bother to see your character.
And the same goes for us with women. If I am not attracted to a girl, then nothing else matters.

@Ozymandias: the most stupid thing is to judge someone you don't know and has done LL and writes his experiences before and after. If you think that I'm exaggerating with my appearance, then it's your problem. I'm very strict with myself and when I say that 5.8-5.9 is not enough for a real alpha male, I know what I'm talking about. If I just wanted a beautiful girl to marry and have children, I would have done that even before my first LL. But this isn't what I want. I want to play with my rules and never get rejected for something that it wasn't my fault like height. My self esteem doesn't let me to admit that many women see me as inferior to many other men because I'm not tall enough, although I tried my best to have a built body, good style and a relatively good income.
I tried my best and the only thing missing to have the complete package is 2-3 inches more. That's ridiculous but it is the hars truth. And that's why me and every other man in my situation has the right to change it. And the only way is LL.

@ Theophilo: most women won't reject you for your height, especially when you are 5.10. But they still think that your height is not perfect. They don't think the same for someone who is 6 ft compared to someone 6.1 ft because you are tall enough to not matter if you were taller or not. Also, after about 6.2 or 6.3 at max height becomes a drawback.
But yes, when you are 5.9 and good looking, most of the women will prefer a more average looking man (not ugly of course) who is 6 ft. That's the truth even if we want to admit it or not.

@ I wanna be taller: that doesn't have to do with my personal experiences. When a woman tells me that 5.9 is not enough for an ideal man, then that has to do with that height, not me personally. And trust me, I have many many good experiences with women that most of the guys that judge me above wouldn't even dream of. But I know that If I were 5.11, these experiences would have been more and easier, not only because I'd have felt much better with myself but because no women (or a very slight minority of crazy height obseased girls but who cares) would think that I'm good but if I were taller I would have been better. If you reach a certain height then being taller simply doesn't matter. And I truly believe that this height is 5.11 or at least 5.10,5. From that and beyond height is becoming a drawback and from 5.8-5.7 and beyond a very significant one.

@ Tibike: I truly believe that height is much more important than a great face for a woman. Being tall with moderate face makes dating much easier than being short with a great face. Having a great face and an average height is enough most of the times but again, being tall is the first that a woman wants in a man and then everything else.
And I completely agree that after a certain threshold height doesn't matter. But this threshold is 5.11 from my experience which is a little above the majority in most west countries, so if you don't reach it then you still will have a drawback in your appearance for most of the women that increases dramatically the shorter your height becomes.


Height is the most important thing in a mans appearance and the only that you can't change at all in a psysical way. It is completely insane to have less chances in our lives because we aren't above the average height or at least very close to it. But this is the harsh and only truth.
So you have 2 options. Try harder to succeed and many times keep failing (especially in dating) for somethimg that it isn't your fault, or take the risks and change it with LL and become whatever you want with nothing holding you down.
Everyone can make the choice he wants. I chose the second one before 5 years and I'll do it again in about 2 years to finish once and for all the height issue for myself.
I want to play with my rules, whatever it takes.

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@Tibike: no my friend, the ideal men for women is not taller than them but tall.
A 5.3 girl will want a lets say 6ft tall man as much as a 5.7 girl.
Of course shorter girl could deal with taller than them men but not generally tall but still their preference would be a tall man.
What women want don't have to do with what they are. It is completely the same between a fat man compared to an athletic man. They both want a sexy slim woman.

@ yunggud: I agree but I don't think that 5.9 compared to 5.85 plays a big role to how people see you.

@ozymandias: I've done LL and talk about my experiences before and after it and also I say my opinion about ehat is the real border where height stops to matter. I don't know anything about you, your height, if you had LL etc so your opinion doesn't really matter at all for me. So keep calm and face your own problems. 

@captain america: By showing disrespect to a veteran LLer who has a diary with pics on the old forum you just show how moron you are. I don't care if you believe me or not, I'm sure that most of the people here can understand what I did and what I'm talking about because they have faced it again and again and that's why they consider LL.
And my profile pic is from Scott Steiner, a phenomenon in wrestling and a real macho man, at least in appearance (because his character is funny and cartoonish). But it doesn't matter, keep believing what you want about me, Steiner or anyone else. If you ever do LL then we can discuss for real. But for now, you are just an unexperienced brat who tries to gain value by insulting people that you don't even know, like me. That's the best you can do. Really pathetic.

@ onemorefoot: I'm not sure. The only thing I take for granted is that I'll do internal femurs but for sure I can't afford anything more than 50.000 euros. So in about a year from now I think that I'll have my final decision.

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Quote from: Big Daddy on February 22, 2017, 11:56:31 PMThe highlight of hilarity of this forum is the amount of people who permanently damage their bodies with one lengthening and then decide they'll do a second one because they'd rather be almost crippled and tall than average height and able to move like they're younger than 75. You gotta be one unethical person to operate on these kinds of people.

Who are you to insult LL'ers, epecially in a forum about LL?
Also, how do you know if we are crippled or not? I'm almost sure that a "crippled" LL'er like me could lift you in the air and push you back on the ground with not much effort.
So show some respect to people who underwent this hard surgery to improve their lives and get away from a silly social prejudice about short height that unfortunately plays a major role in our lives, or gtfo from here and go to a forum with moron people like you who judge something that never faced because they were just lucky to have a good height.

LL is for the brave ones. Morons like you are the last ones who can criticize us.

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Yves, no it is not unethical because being originally short (especially me because you are about average) doesn't mean that we are going to have short children or the opposite.
After all my dad is almost 5.10 and I was 5.65 (my mum is just 5.2) so by being tall doesn't mean that your children will be tall too. Most of the times the woman's genes play even a bigger role about the height of the children so if our woman is not short, there is a great possibility that our children won't be short too.
But after all there is always LL so everything can change, especially after about 20-25 years that our children would have ended puberty and reached their final height.
So it's up to you if you'll say it or not. I won't and I am completely good about that.

Also, don't be afraid too much about amount of lengthening.
If the doctor is really capable and you are not very unfortunate to have major complications like infections, then most of the people could reach 6-7 cm on femurs and 5-6 on tibias without many risks.
I lengthened 7.5 cm on tibias, which is a lot, and if my moron doctor didn't mess with my achilles tendons, I could have easily been to my 90% pre LL condition which is fine.
Even now I can do everything and almost noone will ever notice that my gait is not ideal due to my loose ach. Tendons (which I'll fix in 2 months with a new surgery).
So don't worry about that, go to a good doctor, keep stretching and I'm sure that you'll get very close to 5.11 with femur LL without many risks.
LL is tricky but not as much as most people who haven't done it believe. After my first LL I'm very sure about my decision to do a second LL and I'm really don't afraid about that. With a little good luck, much effort from the patient and a professional doctor, the outcome will most of the times be very good.

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@ big troll daddy: I am normal and I walk normal too from what people see. So stop telling bs if you don't know anything about my current condition. Yes, my tendons are not as they should because I had a bad surgery but is is something almost completely irreversible and that's why I'm gonna (try to) fix it. And noone ever gave me strange looks or told me anything about my gait or something so it is a thing that only I can feel and has nothing to do with my appearance and how others see me.
But if I can improve my abilities and be almost back to completely normal compared to my preLL condition with another one surgery, there is no reason to not do it. And that's what I'm going to do.
That has nothing to do with my will to reach 5.11 and never face any negative comment about my height again.
These are two completely different things.

@ doomsday: if two men are about the same in appearance and one is 5.9 and the other one is 5.11, who do you think that the vast majority of women would choose?
Also, I'd really prefer to attract women with my appearance and then with my character than with money (50k you mentioned). I prefer women who like me, even after an added height than women who care about money and all these.

If you think that with a height like 5.7-8 nothing holds you back, especially on dating, then I'm really happy about you and I hope you'll never prove yourself wrong.
But my personal experience and from what I everyday see with men at about my height is different.
Yes, my current height is not bad for dating but it is also not a benefit. And there is no reason to not change something to improve your life if you have the ability to do it.
So, I can't accept that height makes my life harder or at least not as easy as it could have been if I was above average height.
That's why I'm planning for a second LL. Of course I am not doomed at my current height, I have many chances in everything including dating but by reaching 5.11 then height will never be again an issue in anything in my life.
So, since I'll have the ability to reach that height and have the social benefits from being relatively tall and also feel completely ok with my self, there is no reason to stop without doing it.
And I'm sure that this is the main reason that many peers here who are already 5.8-5.10 (that's the max limit for worth  doing LL imo)  think about this surgery.
We don't need it at all cost and to be socially accepted like really short men who face a huge and completely unfair discrimination, but it could still improve our lives a lot.

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@ crimsontide: thank you for your kind words first of all.
About AT shortening, the biggest research which included 11 patients who had this surgery after tendon elongation from bad surgeries after AT rupture and were under the observation of dr Mafulli, maybe the best doctor in the world about achilles tendon surgeries (he only does orthopaedic surgeries to ach tendons, nothing else!) and is also on the internet, have much greater results than 50-55%.
The average push off power was restored to 82% and calf diameter was about 3 cm less compared to healthy foot (less than 10% difference).
And all the patients except from 1 said that they couldn't feel any difference between their legs, healthy and operated one.
So my friend, at least on papers, AT shortening seems to work a lot and after all, my calf size is already less than 10% smaller than before ATL (I'm an amateur BBer so I always measured my muscles and I know exactly the difference) so 50-55% of gastrocnemius reduction is far from reality, at least for relatively young and healthy patients.

I'm sorry for the off topic post but I"ve read a lot about what I"m going to do and have an excellent doctor with great experience on ach. tendons, so I know why I am so optimist about this surgery. After all, even now with overlengthened tendons (especially the left one) most of the times I am generally speaking good and walk normal, so if I wasn't sure about the good incomes of tendon shortening (at least on theory and what research shows) then I wouldn't have considered doing it.
I hope that everything will be ok with me and  maybe you consider doing it too in the future.

@ Dointgitforme: first of all congratulations for your diary and your smooth LL experience.
You have many right points on what you say but you know something? I'm very happy with anything else in my life and I don't want to-can't improve anything else in my appearance because I'm lucky to have a good face and my body, after 11 years of continuous working out (with only 2 years break after LL) is at its best.
And I wasn't been rejected for my height too, at least openly, but I"ve many times heard that I'm not tall enough or that I'd have been much better if I was 5.11 and these kind of comments.
And after all, I know that if I were 5.11 I'd have been more aesthetic looking than now and if we want to discuss and about proportions (which doesn't matter a lot for me) it is better for someone to have equally lenfgthened femurs-tibias compared to someone with just 7.5 cm lengthened tibias.

So, there is really no reason for not doing another LL and reach my dream height.
Money doesn't matter for me if I'm completely happy with myself and have social benefits from height (which you don't have when you are shorter than about 5.11) and risks are not many with femur LL with a capable doctor.
For all these reasons, a second LL is really something that will improve my life a lot.

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Quote from: Antonio on February 23, 2017, 11:28:15 AMBodybuilder, have you tried boots with lifts to add 4-5 cm to your normal height with shoes? If you have, do you notice a big difference in response from the women you date / try to date? Not trying to pick on you, I'm truly interested in the marginal effect

Yes my friend, when go in the clubs I wear my 2 inches elevator Bugarri shoes, not only for the added height but because they are very elegant too. These put me at a solid 5.10,5 or just a slight more which is the border imo to be taller than most of the girls (of course there are still a lot of girls taller than that with heels but not the majority)  in the clubs who wear huge heels (10+ cm) and be about average compared to the most men there who also wear shoes of 2-3 cms.
So, my elevator shoes only give about 1 extra inch more compared to the most normal men's shoes which is something but not anything big.
And yes, I see a difference especially when I talk to girls who are just a little shorter than me (with heels) and if I wore flat shoes they would have been taller and most of the times would have rejected me only for that. A guy shorter than a woman, even if she wears huge heels, is at least 80% a dealbreaker for her, especially in places like clubs, bars and all these.

Finally, my 6ft and 6.1ft best friends still have a much easier time picking girls on clubs and they are completely average looking in every other aspect. Not bad of course but not anything special either. And both of them have much less money than me (because some of you mentioned money and success) and neither of them have a relatively new BMW like me.
But height make their lives much easier on dating, not in relationships generally where many other things matter a lot too, but on the first impression.
Above averave height, good clothes and an at least average face and body are more than enough to have plenty chances on dating.

@Bander: I was 1.68 and now I am 1.75,5.
I'm talking about morning height. At night before going to sleep I'm most of the times 1.74 or just 2-3mm  less.

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Quote from: Antonio on February 23, 2017, 02:11:40 PMThanks for sharing your honest experience, BB; it is refreshing to hear.

Further questions:
1. Do you ever pick up women in places where they don't wear heels, like the gym / tennis club / ski piste / running in the park? Assuming then that you are a good 4-5 inches taller than them (assuming equal footwear), are their responses better than when you are in the places where they wear heels? Also as in the gym they are more appreciative of your body they could overlook the height difference.

2. Do you do better when you are in a group of men of similar height (as in you look like the average guy)? or better when the average is less (ie you look taller than average)? I ask because I went to a salsa club for the first time last week with a date and I was surprised that I was one of the tallest guys there. I can't dance to save my life but I certainly felt that the women were more interested.

3. What is the ideal height for a woman for you? Has your perception of the ideal height of a woman changed after your LL?

Once again, just trying to confirm or refute some hypotheses. Respect to you my friend

@ krp1: nice to met you my friend.

@682: You are right. Many of the posts here should be moved to an other thread or something.

@ antonio: 1)on the gym it is much harder to pick up girls and also, I'm there for working out, not for picking girls. Also, the girls that are really worth are there to just work out and don't have the willing for social time with men most of the time.
So when I hit the gym I'm dedicated to do what I should with my body and I'm not in the mood for more things. And trust me, most of the real good looking girls think the same. They go to gym to improve themselves, not meeting men.
Also, I don't have many hobbies (ski, jogging etc) so I don't know if it would have been easier for me to flirt there.
The places I most of the times find women is clubs, bars and generally speaking places that people go out to meet other people. Of course there are many superficial women there but there are nice women too. And after all, superficial or not, they still want to meet men. And if you don't have any major drawback in your appearance (which is the most important on these places for both men and women) then you won't face any problem even with a little shallow women.
After all, its nice to have the choice to see if you want to do something with a (even shallow) girl or not rather than be rejected for something like height.
I don't look for these kinds of girls of course but I still don't want to think that I'm not good enough for many women due to my lack of more than average height, while on every other aspect I'm far from average.

2). Yes, while I'm with men at about my height or a little above (1 inch lets say) almost every time I'm the one who would find a new girl in a club. When I am with my tall friends I mentioned before, most of the times they find girls easier than me and women talk to them more than me.
And yes, the less the average men height in a club is, the easier it is for me to pick girls.
All these are  a common experience for men who go out a lot and have an adventurous life style.
People who only find women via internet or have longtime relationships and don't go out to meet new girls can't understand what I'm talking about and how important is height for these situations.

3) I don't have an ideal height for women. The most compatible for my height would be a 5.4-5.6 girls but everything from 5.2 to 5.9 is good enough for me.
I tend to prefer girls 5.3-5.6 range but I really don't care.
On the other hand, a nice face, a slim body and a cute character are much more significant for me in a girl than height.

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Here is the link Crimsontide
"test paired sampled statistics showed that the operated limb had a lower peak torque than the nonoperated leg (240.9 N ± 51.9 N vs. 299.0 N ± 44.2 N; P = 0.05), but the patients did not perceive this decrease in strength as interfering with their daily or leisure activities. ".

299 N to 241 N means a reduction of plantar flexion power of about 20%, not 50% as you mentioned.
Also most of the patiens didn't saw any major difference between the operated and the non operated leg after tendon shortening, although before this surgery they couldn't even do a single heel raise (I can do more than 40 in each leg).
And finally, these patients where about 50 years old which doesn't help a lot for a great outcome compared to my 28 years.
So if they reached about 80% compared to their non operated leg, I'm almost sure than my outcome will be at least the same and maybe bettet.

All the above numbers and everything about achilles tendon shortening after tendon elongation due to bad surgery after achilles rupture (which is the same as tendon overlengthening after atl) are mentioned here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3460090/