Hi all.
I wanted to create this thread as a place where I can collate CLL resources as I edcuate myself on the procedure and ultimately decide whether to undergo the procedure myself.
How I found my way here:
I was not actively searching for LL related content and it's not something I was thinking about doing, however I stumbled upon a youtube video a couple of weeks back () detailing the CLL story of a patient of Dr. Rozbruch. I was pretty shocked when the procedure turned out to be a lot different to how I'd seen it portrayed a few years prior (I wasn't actively searching for it then either but had run into an article somewhere).
After that I watched Dr. Paley's presentation on Precise and the then upcoming Stryde (). When hearing Dr. Paley discuss the statistics on past patients, their post procedure ratings and the possibility of maintaining a high level of functionality and athleticism I decided to dive in further.
I'm been lurking and reading the forum for a little over a week now.
A little about me:
Nationality: British
Age: Early 30s
Height: 166cm
I consider myself reasonably happy in day to day life. I've experienced dissatisfaction with my height and feelings of insecurity around it on and off for a while. I'm far from depressed, though I considered it as an "obstacle" I will always have to deal with and I have found it reducing my quality + enjoyment of life.
I have an above average income and some decent savings so if I do decide to pursue the procedure I'm in a position to do so. From the available options I've seen so far I think Dr. Giotikas is probably the best fit for me, he has a good resume and is in a good location.
My thoughts so far:
The procedure sounds extremely challenging, reading the diaries it also seems like it can be extremely rewarding. Is spending the time, money and effort to undergo the procedure + recovery worth it for an additional 8cm of height?
Loss of functionality is not worth it, though trading a % of your athletiscism could be. I'm not a professional athlete, nor do I compete in amateur athletics. If 85-90% of previous athleticism is possible for the majority of patients, I believe the % increase in quality of life is likely worth it for me.
This will be a slow burning thread as I will be busy during the week. I intend to go through any statistics I can find, put together my own using the diaries we have here on the forum and come up with some type of risk reward analysis.
I will also be putting together a plan for a successful recovery, so far I'm thinking that it will include - stretching and flexibility prior to surgery, diet + supplements during recovery, stretches during recovery. Happy to hear more suggestions.
Cheers!
Educating myself on CLL and deciding whether to undergo the surgery.
Welcome! What's your goal height?
Hi Scarface, nice to meet ya.
I'm not sure if I have a goal as of yet. Prior to even knowing that CLL existed in its current form, I thought 5'8" would have been a solid height to have grown to.
In my opinion, at that point you're on the shorter side but not "short" - clothes fit a little better, you're not noticably shorter than the average person, higher than the average female etc. I'm basing this off of my observations of course.
I'm going to try and stay unattached from a specific height and be as unemotional as possible throughout this education process. Really look at it as logically as possible otherwise I risk cherry picking data or having a bias effect the results etc.
It may be hard to do as we all feel pretty strongly about this subject! But I think it's certainly possible.
I can say that so far it looks like Stryde femurs could be a good option and 6.5cm would get me to 5'8" but if I come to the conclusion that pushing to 8cm is worth it in terms of risk/reward then I'd be open to that.
Anything above 5'8" from where I'm starting now would be pretty cool!
I think you're a great candidate for LL. You have your life in order, and you appear to be incredibly humble and able in your life. You set realistic options and goals, and are willing to not have a "do or die" mentality for height, which I think speaks alot about your character. I personally have only started considering LL 3 days ago, when I also discovered the new way they do things, internally with Stryde and all that good stuff.
The people who do well with LL it appears to me, are those that treat stretching and other physical therapy and all that good stuff like a religion. Surprisingly one LL person said that a good portion don't even stretch and are just so worn out and don't put in the work, understandably so however. I think the biggest risk is probably genetics, specifically your bone growth rate. Some people just don't seem to grow much bone, although it appears to be uniform for the vast majority of people. Stryde definitely is a game changer now, weight bearing after 3 weeks post op compared to weight bearing after 4 months post op is actually crazy. like ballerina foot and muscle degeneration can be heavily mitigated with walking early on during distraction. It's crazy how only 2 years ago, being completely disabled for at least 3 months was the norm for most LLers.
People who successfully do LL and are content are those who set reasonable expectations and simply do it to cure height neurosis. They don't expect to be improved in dating, attraction, nothing. They do it for THEMSELVES, to cure them of a body image disorder.
I read a post once that made an excellent analogy. Treat short stature like a face vitiligo person. The person whose face is discolored is normal, and they don't have any loss of functionality with their face, but the image is still there. Their face is disfigured and looks "ugly". When they go out, the first thing people notice about them, is their face. They definitely have good friends that don't give a about their vitiligo, but that's not the issue. They are completely fine, they can do everything normally, they are healthy. Is the vitiligo person fine? Yeah. Are they fine about their color patches? Probably hate it. If there was a surgery that could fix it completely, would they do it? Probably. But they are looking at themselves for being different, being not one skin tone, just like short people are not on the eye level of the average person, all these people view themselves as 'different'.
My point is that height is a neurosis. It's an insecurity that can lower someone's mood for almost no reason. They can't rationally cure it mentally. Yes they would be fine without fixing it. Yes they would still be a worthy normal human being even if they were a 5'2 male. Doing LL won't cure anything else but your body image disorder. You are doing it for YOURSELF. Not others. And I see no problem with wanting to fix a body image disorder. You go from different, to not-different.
If LL wasn't as barbaric as it is currently, breaking legs and stuff, it would be treated like any cosmetic procedure. Boob implants in America, double eyelid surgeries for asians, nose jobs for arabs in UAE, these are examples of cosmetic surgeries that are essentially destigmatized in their respective countries. No one deserves to live a life where THEY themselves don't feel comfortable being themselves. YOLO, so do your best to make sure you are happy in it.
LL is to fix a defect. A body image defect. This is the worse defect, a defect that you can feel everyday and you think about everyday, one where you feel the impacts stemming from YOUR OWN MIND 24/7. I have no respect for people who LL and were already average in their country pre LL, thinking they'll become a chad or whatnot after. I have respect for people who are somewhat on the lower end of underaverage, and do LL to become average, or just below. They want to be normal height. LL isn't to enhance your life, it's to repair a void and heal an mental injury.
Ghkid2019 i agree with most of ur things but u werent really right about the country average thing i am indian and here average male height is 166.3 i am 171 nearly 5cm taller then average but for me its not being average with people near me..its about being comfortable with my body image..even though here male average is 166 that is becoz india is a country of 1333 million people and most of them are from villages but i live in city and here average is like 7 to 8cm taller then me..so that is definately something that stretches my mind i dnt like it..thts y m consdering this..and am considering 10 or 11cm total 6or5 femur+5tibia....u r r8 YOLO..so we shld do what we think we will be happy and comfortable with even if it is breaking ur bones..and the problem with me is that i am not just happy wid my height..i always keep complaining about it and i always keep comparing with other people and some of them also told i kinda act weird coz of it..they noticed it..n i just made an excuse and mitigated the situation...plz try to understand my situation..i suffer from height dysphoria and it can come at any height regardless where you live it is a mental condition more then physical dude.
Alamin, no, you're absolutely right and we are on the same page. You're in an urban area, so your average should be based on that urban city average only. You are completely justified to be neurotic about your height. Just compare to your surroundings, like China's average male height is 170cm overall, but in Beijing the capital, the average is 175cm. Definitely compare to your surrounding city and area, not an arbitrary grouping across a massive country. I should've wrote "local average in your country" instead of "country", that's my fault. We definitely agree with each other.
Additionally, I don't have a problem with wanting to be taller EVEN if you are already above average in your local area. I do have a problem with people who get LL simply because they want to be a "Chad" and get in all the girls.
Short people do LL to fix a mental deformity to become "normal", banish their own height dysphoria. LL to simply become 95th percentile in height in their local area to get more girls instead of fixing a true body image issue- that's just incredibly stupid risk-reward ratio.
Even I feel short in India, esp Delhi among people my age despite being a shade above average technically and even you (Alamin) do perhaps justifiably so.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country
Urban Indian average is nearly 5ft 9 and for Punjabis more 5ft 10. I must say however I feel short but not by that much, I pretty much never faced heightism and only occasionally get called short. I just have this dysphoria about it that exists purely within me but I'm aware the heightism would actually be manifest objectively elsewhere, probably leading to feelings of inadequacy.
Just my two cents, even wanting to be a "chad" isn't bad, when you can get the benefits and unconscious respect of a tall stature/appearance and have enough finances and patience then why not seek out to be the best version of yourself? Admittedly it actually is a bit odd for me to hear 5ft 10ers wanting this procedure but who are we to say. Beyond 6ft though it gets really ridiculous and have pretty much no additional benefits and the risk to reward ratio plummets very hard. Height dysphoria is still mental though regardless of how tall you are as Paley once said.
I guess you can do what you want, but there's some truly crazy people like Meck who is lengthening nonstop and now I don't think he will be able to walk for the rest of his life. These people have a fantasy to be a tall Chad and won't stop until they become it or close to it, at the cost of their limbs considering that they start at like 20cm before. Other examples, Apotheosis/SysOp and Crazy+6. These people are truly addicted in not just filling a void of height neurosis, but they are probably suffering from height psychosis, and are addicted to becoming a fantasy version of a tall attractive person. There is no sense of realism and rationalism in them, they ignore doctor's orders and end up disabled permanently, and any non-psychotic person would've stopped 10cm earlier than them. These people are psychos, not just normal neurotic people who want to do LL to cure height neurosis.
When I see posts like "I'm 180cm, I WIN! YOU ALL DIDNT BELIEVE I COULD DO IT" while their pictures show a 200 degree ballerina foot with no possibility of PT fixing it because they can't even stand, it's obvious they are suffering from height psychosis, not height neurosis. They are fked for life. Psychopaths.
There's a reason why most competent doctors have psychological evaluations before they do the surgeries, even if it's just the doctor and not a psychologist. People are fking crazy.
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