The new paradigm in LL; no longer are we aiming for 10cm

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Quote from: mediocre on February 17, 2014, 11:51:00 PMHi Kilo, for the record how is crazy+6 now?
Can he run? Does he have severely limited Activities of Daily Living?

How about Apo?

Last I heard was a few months ago and person who saw him said he would have potentially lifelong problems. Made it seem like he would be near crippled forever. Last I saw of Apo was that video he posted of him on the trampoline.

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the most scary part about Crazy6+'s diary were the mind-boggling positive comments that people posted. I don't know if it was to obey the law and orders of old forum  or not, but I remember when crazy posted a full shot of his body. It looked like he was on stilts. I swear to God, I never seen any person more disproportionate and off-looking. It was a pic taken of him from behind, where he was standing in front of a bed and held his crutches midway up in air.

I cannot remember a single person tell the truth to him. Does anyone still have that pic?

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Hi,

I partially agree with this. I got surgery with Guichet last month. I am at 4cm right now. My goal is 10cm. There's this girl lengthening right now at 8.5cm and I see her walking already and she is perfectly fine. She is rlly young and her bone is consolidating 3x faster than average.

And I seen this guy who just left that went to only 6cm but have problem walking and have nerve problems.

So i think it all depends on ur body. I think LL is sooo individualistic. I think the wise move is not to force it if it's not in ur body to go to a large amount. But i think any amount set is rlly arbitary. The girl i mentioned only wanted to do 7, but she had no problem at 7 and decided to go further.

Just take it one step at a time. That is the right move i think -- the wise move. I am probably not going to take the wise move, but non the less that is what ppl should do. 

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I agree that everyone is different. There'd be few whose body can absorb more than 10 cm of lengthening. The problem is we don't know who would that few are until they LL; it doesn't mean one is fit and flexible and he could do more. It's not as predictable as that.

Eventually everyone will regress to the mean. We just don't know what is the magic soft spot, that mean cm, where more than that is already more than enough. Dr Franz won't lengthen more than 10cm (femur + tibia), and I believe his reason is both for safety and proportion.

We're still getting more data as we discuss this in the forum. CLL is still in its infancy. I hope there's a randomized control trial (golden standard) where the optimum lengthening is determined based on safety and proportion, with 5-10-20 years follow up.

But that won't ever happen. All we have are anecdotal reports of each diary. This is the poorest evidence recommendation.

As Leechlet would always use poker as an analogy, our bet should be just enough. If we're too greedy, safety would be compromised (betting too high will make the other guy fold).


Quote from: leechlet on February 17, 2014, 11:56:20 PMHi,

I partially agree with this. I got surgery with Guichet last month. I am at 4cm right now. My goal is 10cm. There's this girl lengthening right now at 8.5cm and I see her walking already and she is perfectly fine. She is rlly young and her bone is consolidating 3x faster than average.

And I seen this guy who just left that went to only 6cm but have problem walking and have nerve problems.

So i think it all depends on ur body. I think LL is sooo individualistic. I think the wise move is not to force it if it's not in ur body to go to a large amount. But i think any amount set is rlly arbitary. The girl i mentioned only wanted to do 7, but she had no problem at 7 and decided to go further.

Just take it one step at a time. That is the right move i think -- the wise move. I am probably not going to take the wise move, but non the less that is what ppl should do. 

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Ya, totally agree with mediocre

WHen i first started this journey, I always asked Guichet if i can get to 10cm and HOW i would know. SLR score? cybex? just give me the bottom line, i told the guy. but he always said, "we'll see..." or "it depends..." which annoyed me bc i thought that was a bull answer. i mean, what the heck? why can't he just tell me a straight up answer? so i kept asking and asking.

after i got the surgery, i finally understood. LL is not a controlled event, like u just put in a nail, u do some stretches, and BOOM bro, u got taller. sweet man. time to go hit up chicks. no no, it's not like that. it's a much more chaotic procress with lots of random variables. how well will u heal? how fast will ur muscle adapt? how about ur nerves? psychology? sleep? eating? etc etc. soooo many variable. thats bc our body is one hella complex piece of machinery. it's not like an engine, a linear system where A+B = C always. no, there's so many things u couldn't possibly know until u do it.

i think that's why guichet has above average results. he claims he is the best. i never believe those claims. but his patients i see all have no major complications bc he adjusts to their conditions, such as click rate and medicine to speed up or slow down bone healing. but in the end, u gotta understand that LL like poker, is both a game of skill and luck. u can control how much u train, how closely u follow orders, and how seriously u take the whole experience, but u can't control how ur body will react. u just get a good doctor. that's like starting out with AKs. u have a good prep and surgery. that's liek flopping TPTK on a two tone board drawing to the nut flush. but maybe sometime will go wrong. maybe that stubborn nerve in ur right leg is causing problem, holding a set and boating up by the river. idk. okay, i am gonna stop with these poker analogies. but basically, u gotta accept the random nature of LL too if u wanna be completely realistic

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Obvious heading.

Less is always better. If you do less, you recover faster and you will look more proportionate (assuming you don't have awkward body to begin with).

If you can overcome this height neurosis that we're all suffering from, I would never suggest anyone to undergo LL in the first place. I have made too many sacrifices this year and last year and my life would have been wayyyy better off and I would be much more happier had I not done LL. I would still keep my gf, finished by degrees, and be promoted to a higher position at work. Plus one of the reasons why my CEO liked me was because of my height. He was looking out for the small guy. But I can never overcome this height neurosis, which is ruining me in a bad way.

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Here is my comments regarding those folks above.

Oldie - perfect

Tall - this guy allowed his height insecurity to get the better part of him. He went from a respectable height of 5'10 to become 6'7 (correct me if I'm wrong, 12cm + 6.5cm?). First of all, I can't imagine all the money he has spent. And his job is as respectable as his height. He's a sleazy salesman for Dr. M.

Crazy 6+ - he was my first roommate at Sarin's guesthouse. I knew all along he was the manager there. As we're friends, so I don't want to say too many bad things about him. But I wouldn't blame Sarin for his lack of recovery. While I was doing 300 sit-up per day, he was only reaching up for food. And he was even lazy to go to the washroom himself and have to ring the helper to carry him there.

Apo/Sysop - any guy who call himself Apothesis should have a reality check. He's really far from being a "god," both physically and mentally. He has been hiring hookers, who he calls girlfriends on old forum , to come over his house to take photo of him. He said women look at him with "deary" eyes out of admiration. I'm not sure if it's admiration or because they feel sorry for how mess up he has become. He's bald, upper body looks like a balloon with two long pair of white legs sticking out at the end. He said he likes to looking over ppl with his height, standing next to his other tall friend. I can imagine what that looks like. If they're both at the same height, Apo's crotch level would be at his friend's rib cage height level... not a very cool sight.

India's patient - well, I feel sorry for myself now. I was really hoping that my journey would end well. Unfortunately, I discovered that my left tibia is short than my right by 1cm. Now I have this problem to deal with before I can think about my next femur LL journey. And I wouldn't do much, maybe just 6cm.

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10cm is still a reasonable maximum goal for some people.  My calves and ankles were extremely flexible before going into the surgery.  I think I could have lengthened more than 7.5cm and still been all right.  My only real problem was with my knees, which hurt from the very beginning and were resistant to PT.  Things actually got easier for me the more I lengthened, possibly because of time passing between the IM nail surgery and then.

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LL has a cruel irony going in the sense that it's the smaller guys, those who are often 165cm and under who feel the greatest need for massive gains of 10cm which in turn look even weirder due to their smaller everything (wingspan, torso, hands,)

I think Dr Birkholtz is on the money when he talks about 5cm+5cm however most people want more (myself included).
However what we want and what is good for us... you know the rest.

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I agree, patients will ask more because that's just human nature. We don't see it objectively. But doctors do, and I'm happy there are doctors like Dr Birkholtz who put limits because they see it objectively. He loses patients and money, true, but that's the ethics of being a doctor—he swears that he will, "First, Do No Harm."

Quote from: theuprising on February 18, 2014, 07:58:24 AMLL has a cruel irony going in the sense that it's the smaller guys, those who are often 165cm and under who feel the greatest need for massive gains of 10cm which in turn look even weirder due to their smaller everything (wingspan, torso, hands,)

I think Dr Birkholtz is on the money when he talks about 5cm+5cm however most people want more (myself included).
However what we want and what is good for us... you know the rest.